Trigger warning: this episode contains discussions of traumatic births and post-natal depression
Jamie Hurst, publishing director at Mortgage Solutions, was joined by speakers Tamzin Foster, director and lead coach at FuseCo, Phil Green, marketing director at Pepper Money, and Dan Hobbs, CEO of New Leaf Distribution.
To open the discussion, Hurst outlined the “quiet revolution in fatherhood”, with dads wanting to be more present in family life, and how this can conflict with work commitments.
The shift towards equity in the home
Foster explained that it seems society is “largely ignoring this enormous cultural shift” and the fathers she coaches are “parenting in a radically different way to what they grew up with”, with many having “fathers who boasted about things like never having changed a nappy”. She noted that although “mums are still doing more than dads in the home today”, the balance of fatherhood “is shifting a long way towards equity”.
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She said engaged fathers “improve maternal health outcomes”, child development and behaviour, and “reduce relationship breakdown”, but explained that “we don’t use the phrase ‘working dads’ in the way that we use the phrase ‘working mums’, even though that’s what they are, and we don’t enquire as to how they’re doing”.
Foster noted that the UK’s statutory paternity pay of two weeks is “the shortest and the lowest paid in Europe”, as well as there being “nothing in place for the self-employed”. Moreover, only about a third of fathers claim paternity pay.
She also mentioned BBC findings that nearly half of UK births are delivered by C-section, a surgery after which the “mum is not supposed to drive, exercise or lift anything heavier than a baby – and yet we’ve got this paternity leave policy. That’s not enough for recovery, let alone bonding.”
There remains pressure on men to be breadwinners and women to be largely responsible for childcare, which is one of the reasons Foster said “dads can be really damning of things like return-to-office mandates… It’s those dead hours of the commute that are smack in the middle of bath, bottle and bed”.
Hurst mentioned the dichotomy between men being seen as the provider while simultaneously “wanting to be much more present in terms of bringing up their kids”. Green agreed that the “biggest challenge” for him was “having one foot in both camps, but actually delivering something meaningful… at home for the family, but also at work”. He mentioned needing to be completely present during bedtimes or bathtimes and the resultant guilt that can stem from being solely in “family mode”.
Hobbs noted potential “conflict” with the ideology of his own parents, who had a “traditional” arrangement where “dad was working all the time and my mum was looking after everybody”. He also expressed guilt and echoed Foster’s comments about the “traditional viewpoint” that persists – “it’s ingrained in us still as dads” that even if their partner is working, “we should still be the main earners”.
The reality of fatherhood
When Hobbs had his first child, he lived “like nothing had changed in my life”, and though he took paternity leave, he “was desperate to get back to work”. When he attended after-work events, his “wife was left on her own, she really struggled”.
With his second child, Hobbs “went into it with a completely different mindset”, which “changed everything” for him. He also highlighted the prevalence of C-sections, and after his wife had her first one, he hadn’t “realised how big a deal that was” and his wife needed “a lot of support”. After the birth of his second child, who was also delivered by C-section, Hobbs took three months off work to support his wife’s recovery, which “made all the difference”.
Challenges with childbirth
Hurst mentioned the impact that traumatic pregnancy and birth experiences can have on fathers as well as mothers.
Green explained that when 19 weeks pregnant with their second child, his wife’s waters broke and she was “rushed into hospital” because they “thought she was going to go into labour”. She was in hospital for 10 days and eventually had a C-section at 36 weeks, involving “hospital appointments almost every other day” for six months and Green’s wife being “bedbound for a long time”. At the same time, Green’s first child still needed caring for. He explained that when a midwife asked how he was, it was a “very emotional experience” as it had been a long time since someone had asked after him, though he emphasised it “doesn’t take anything away from what [my wife] went through”.
Foster said this is “far from an isolated experience” and that on maternity wards, “fathers have the status of visitors at best”.
She added: “There is more space for men to check in with men, but I think it’s actually incumbent on us all”.
Hobbs said Green’s experience resonated with him because his first child was born during Covid, meaning he was “only allowed to be there [at] certain times of the day”. Hobbs said it felt “very clinical and that I wasn’t really allowed to be there”, which led to him feeling “detached” from the whole experience. His second child was born post-Covid and “it was a completely different experience in hospital”.
Green agreed, saying his second child was born three days after the first Covid lockdown was introduced, which meant that after months of not knowing “whether the baby would survive, I then wasn’t even allowed to be in the hospital for the birth”. After this, Green’s wife spent three days in the ICU alone while he was looking after their other child at home and “didn’t really know what was going on”.
Foster noted that some Covid protocols around childbirth “were in defiance of WHO evidence that showed that you have better maternal health outcomes in birth when dad is present”, adding that “women feel less pain in childbirth when they hold a partner’s hand”.
Men’s mental health
Alongside fathers regularly being sidelined in the hospital setting, Foster explained how their mental health is rarely foregrounded: “It’s hardly surprising that dads sometimes get the idea that this parenting thing is for someone else. They’re not really a part of it and they don’t have agency or a role within it. And the reality is that 10% of dads will experience post-natal depression. Now, that is the same proportion of men as women experience post-natal suppression.
“We currently have a six-week mental health check for women and there is no such equivalent for men to make sure that dad is doing okay.”
She added that “becoming a dad for the first time is a risk for the mental health of men”, but that the risk is substantially lower for subsequent children, meaning “there’s something learnable here”, which could start “with involving men earlier” so they are becoming fathers at the same time as women are becoming mothers.
Hobbs agreed that his reality was “out of sync” with his wife’s for their first child and he may have been “trying to hold on to my youth” as that new reality sank in. He said he felt “pressured” to attend events in case a refusal meant he would not be invited again, and also echoed how the difficulty is significantly heightened with the first child, noting that “it isn’t as hard at all” with a second child.
How working practices and policies can help
The discussion moved on to how becoming a father can change one’s relationship with work. Regarding sports days or celebration assemblies, Green said he has “learned to go to those things and not feel guilty about it” while leaving his phone at home for however long the event lasts, having previously experienced feelings of guilt and wanting to seek “permission” when it came to his first or second children. He emphasised that “if people are delivering what they need to deliver”, then they should be able to “find the balance in a way that works for them”.
Hobbs reiterated having taken three months’ leave when his second child was born, noting he can’t “say that’s just for me and no one else”. His company is very flexible, with colleagues able to do school pick-ups and the majority of them working remotely, with Covid having enabled firms to “trust employees”.
The speakers mentioned that leading by example was valuable, with Hobbs saying that “everyone knows I often do the school runs in the mornings”. He said this was not written into policy or contracts, but colleagues can “work around what you need” and that “if you force your employees to work to the rule all the time… it’s going to end up becoming toxic”.
Foster said that despite some workplaces offering additional leave options for fathers, some can feel they “might be overlooked for certain opportunities if you dare to take it up”. She added that “when we manage employees by inputs rather than outputs”, it can result in “presenteeism” and that employees have “much more respect for managers who look at the quality of work… than someone who measures how many minutes they spent sat on that office chair”.
Green said the policy at Pepper Money is “probably pretty standard”, with an option to do shared parental leave alongside the statutory two weeks off, which he said could be considered on an individual basis. Following the birth of his second child, Green’s experience of working from home for 18 months during Covid has enabled him to be “really empathetic to other people’s situations”. However, he did note that “there is definitely more to be done” for employers generally regarding the “reassurance that you’re not going to get overlooked because you take three months off work to do some shared parental leave”.
Foster said the “direction of travel is really clear” for the evolving role of fathers at work and at home, noting that “we’ve probably hit a plateau of how far mums can go in the workplace if we don’t also help dads into the home”. She agreed with Hurst that return-to-office mandates could represent a step back, but noted that in-person working is valuable, particularly for those starting off in their careers, adding that a combination was probably best.
Listen to the full podcast in the video below, hosted by Jamie Hurst, publishing director at Mortgage Solutions, with speakers Tamzin Foster, director and lead coach at FuseCo, Phil Green, marketing director at Pepper Money, and Dan Hobbs, CEO of New Leaf Distribution.
Signposted resources for working dads
Campaigning
- Fatherhood Institute – the research and policy wing (Six Weeks for Dads, Looking Out for Dad)
- The Dad Shift – petitions, MP lobbying, and collective action (the June 2025 ‘Dad Strike’)
Employment rights
- Fatherhood Institute – briefing on fathers’ employment rights (PDF)
- Bliss – guidance on neonatal care leave and pay for parents whose baby is in intensive care
- Working Families – free legal helpline on parental rights at work (flexible working, shared parental leave, and paternity leave)
Parenting
- Family Man from Movember – free articles and support
- The DadPad – NHS-developed practical guide and app for new dads, with neonatal and Co-ParentPad editions (paid)
- Dadzclub (Portsmouth, Southampton, and the Isle of Wight) – Saturday ‘Stay ‘n’ Play’ sessions, Walk ‘n’ Talk groups, a young dads programme, and one-to-one peer support
Community and storytelling
- Music Football Fatherhood – founded by Elliott Rae (BBC One’s Becoming Dad, UN Women UK Change Maker of the Year). Runs the #DaddyDebates podcast, The Lodge (monthly peer-support sessions for new fathers), and Extra Time — fatherhood conversations held at football stadiums including Arsenal and Southampton FC. The book DAD became an Amazon Top 10 bestseller
Mental health and peer support
- NHS – postnatal depression overview (NB: it is mother-focused, so read in conjunction with PANDAS below for dad-specific guidance)
- PANDAS Foundation – dedicated ‘Dads’ Mental Health’ support, including a helpline specifically covering pre- and postnatal depression in fathers
- Andy’s Man Club – free, no-booking-needed peer support groups (not dad-specific, but heavily used by fathers), meeting weekly every Monday at 7pm. Over 350 groups and roughly 6,500 men attending weekly, from the South West through Wales to North Scotland, plus online groups
- CALM (Campaign Against Living Miserably) – men’s mental health and suicide prevention charity, with a free, anonymous helpline and webchat (5pm-12am, 365 days per year)
If you or someone you know is in crisis, Samaritans are free and available 24/7 on 116 123.
