Featuring on March’s episode, Phil Rickards, chairperson at L&C Mortgages, said he never felt privileged and was not aware of his status.
He said: “This might be me and my upbringing. Going back to my childhood I had a very modest upbringing – not quite the full-on council house experience but certainly one street away. I went to a pretty rough comprehensive school, I had to call my mother to say I failed most of my O levels.
“That modest upbringing meant I never really felt privileged until recent times. Even today, I’m not really aware of my status when it comes to the industry I’ve represented for so long.”
Kevin Roberts, director of Legal and General Mortgage Services, said he also did not recognise his privilege growing up.
He said he had a similar history to Rickards and grew up on the “less desirable side” of Cannock which gave him a Midlands accent. His dad had three jobs, and he wore no-brand trainers during school so he “never felt privileged at all, I just knew I had to work hard.”
Roberts added: “I don’t think you look around you, you just look forward. I saw people with perceived more privilege than me… so I never stopped to look around me and look at the privilege I had. You’re always looking at what you don’t have. That’s been a lesson I’ve learnt more recently.”
Changing outlooks
When asked how events like the Black Lives Matter protests and Me Too changed their view of the world and themselves, Rickards said his awakening began years before when he became a granddad.
Speaking of his grandson, Rickards said he “doesn’t see differences in colour, he doesn’t see disability, he doesn’t see sexual preference – everybody’s the same as far as he’s concerned.
“Having become really close to him and listening to him talk about his experiences… it gives me hope that the younger generation are in good hands in that respect.”
Going further back, Rickards said he played basketball in his twenties and travelled across the UK competing against black players who he had to keep up with.
He added: “I always had the hugest amount of respect for black players and my sporting hero without a doubt is Michael Jordan.
“I’ve never really felt aware of a lot of this stuff and probably blocked myself out of it wrongly… now I’m much more aware of the situation.”
A different environment
Podcast host Bharat Sagar, ambassador-at-large of AE3 Media, asked if Rickards ever felt conscious of his identity when in predominantly black spaces.
Rickards said two trips stuck out, which were trips to Brixton and Tower Hamlets where he played against teams that were at the top of the English national league but were also “really intimidating places to go”.
One sports ground had nets across the stairwells and Rickards thought this was to stop him from being thrown over. He said during one game, a black guy sat on his bench and told the team they should “return home to Wales to do what we do best to sheep”.
Rickards said this did not affect him adversely, just made him aware of the different environment.
Challenging others
Sagar asked what Roberts and Rickards said to people who dismissed diversity and inclusion efforts.
Roberts said it should matter because it effects everyone. He added that some of the things which happened at industry events and dinners were “wholly unacceptable”.
He added: “I don’t leave a dinner at the end of the night and worry about getting a taxi but ladies do. I don’t worry about whether I sit next to a speaker because I’ve got normal hearing but some people do. Everyone around us has their own lack of a privilege.
“It’s really important that we stop and realise what we do have and the fact that others don’t have that.”
Rickards said he used to be that person who asked why he should care and what the problem was, especially as he had grown up interacting with people from diverse backgrounds.
He added: “That’s definitely changed for me. My basic way of looking at this is it’s everybody’s human right to be treated equally, and we’ve all got a duty when we spot somebody not being treated equally to look out for them and to try to put a stop to it and try to educate people.
“If I’m being brutally honest that’s the bit I still struggle with it a little bit.
“I still don’t feel that I’m totally educated enough on this topic to be able to have these really difficult and challenging conversations with people – but I’m trying and that’s the honest answer.”
‘Have courage, it’s worse to be passive’
When asked how they would encourage people on a wider societal level to engage in diversity and inclusion initiatives, Roberts said it required a lot of courage which he did not have all the time.
“As white men, we cast a massive shadow and if we don’t tackle that, if we don’t do something about it, it sends out the wrong messages.”
Roberts said he had tried and had a number of conversations, but admitted there were areas where he probably “hadn’t done enough” but would try to do more next time.
He also said the fear of saying or doing the wrong thing should not stop people from trying.
Roberts added: “It’s worse to be passive and not have the courage to at least try to do something about it in all situations. That’s the only way that us white middle-aged men are going to make a difference.”
Rickards said he was in a similar camp but had a lot to learn.
He recently challenged his father-in-law who complained about a BT engineer not speaking English and on the same weekend, questioned his mother-in-law’s use of the word “Asian” when describing how nice her nurse was. Rickards said it was not necessary to describe the nurse as Asian.
“Neither of them got it, they both put it off as a generational thing and it’s just the way they’ve been brought up,” Rickards added.
Rickards said it was not an excuse and they needed to reeducate themselves, “and the conversation ended there quite awkwardly”.
“I had a go; I probably didn’t do a brilliant job of it but I tried.”
Listen to the full episode [29:36] hosted by Bharat Sagar, ambassador-at-large of AE3 Media, featuring Phil Rickards, chairperson at L&C Mortgages and Kevin Roberts, director of Legal and General Mortgage Services.
